Wednesday, June 07, 2006

Mormon Truth Podcast #20-An Interview With Joy, An Ex-Mormon-Part 3

MP3 File

In this final installment of my interview with Joy, we pick up where part 2 left off, with Joy talking about her dear friend that very she recently lost. We continue discussion on the awful condemnation and blanket accusations of sin, that are heaped upon homosexuals, by both Mormonism and Christianity and how offensive, bigoted and awful it is.

Interesting how these people, shouting sin or sinners, that do the condemning, don't have a freakin clue why people are gay or if they are born that way; just that the Bible is against it and they believe in the Bible, case closed!! It is a disgrace and they should be ashamed of themselves!! So maybe Noah's Ark wasn't literal, but any statement condemning gays, is 100% literal, accurate and correct. Get a clue guys!!

Joy goes into more painful detail about how her friend felt so alone, abandoned and why, since both his Parents and Church, condemned him in his time of greatest need. Anyone see the disgusting clips of Mormon Apostle Russel M. Nelson this week, in Washington DC, praising the anti-gay marriage bill, which has failed by the way? What a dumb ass and what a bigot, as he just made our point for us, once again, publicly condemning gay rights and showing their true colors, for all the world to see.

Finally, we wrap things up, talking about her Dad's modern day polygamous ways, which are fully sanctioned and approved by the Mormon Hierarchy, through the Mormon Temple. What did the Mormon Church's Public Affairs Department say the other day, in an interview with the LA Times, when they were asked, "Is polygamy gone forever from the Church?"

They said:

"We only know what the Lord has revealed through His prophets, that plural marriage has been stopped in the Church. Anything else is speculative and unwarranted."

They are damn liars, plain and simple!! Anyone seeing a pattern yet? The Church is just an alternative, polygamy doesn't exist, Hinckley doesn't know if God was a man, or if we even teach that and on and on. The lies will roll forward, just like that big stone, until they fill the earth, which they are already doing.

What about polygamy in the next life? I guess that is just speculative and unwarranted too, right? Hmm...I guess we should all read D&C 132 again and all of those other teachings about how you can't make it to Mormon Celestial glory, without being a polygamist. Amazing, isn't it? Just ask the Mormon God and Jesus, they were both big time polygamists.

I sure wish that I could interview that homocidal angel wielding the flaming sword, that was gonna slay Joseph, if he didn't become a polygamist and marry little girls, other men's wives, Mothers/Daughters and Sister combos. Now that would be my dream interview, but then he might slay me at the end, unless we just did the Skype thing, from Kolob.

Let's read the quote from the "Official Church Handbook of Instructions", regarding "modern day polygamy" and then decide if it has been stopped and if it is just "speculative and unwarranted", for us to say that it still exists:

Living Men

If a husband and wife have been sealed and the wife dies, the man may have another woman sealed to him if she is not already sealed.

If a husband and wife have been sealed and later divorced, the man must receive a sealing clearance from the First Presidency before another woman may be sealed to him (see "Applying for a Cancellation of Sealing or a Sealing Clearance" on this page). A sealing clearance is necessary even if the previous sealing has been canceled.

What about women, can they be sealed to more than one man, at the same time?

Living Women

A living woman may be sealed to only one husband. If she is sealed to a husband and later divorced, she must receive a cancellation of that sealing from the First Presidency before she may be sealed to another man in her lifetime (see "Applying for a Cancellation of Sealing or a Sealing Clearance" on this page).

So, there you have it, pretty damn simple, men can be polygamists, women can't and the above statements, show and prove Joy's story to be true and the Mormon Church's Public Affairs Department to be liars, but we already knew that, didn't we?

Come on TBMS, bring it on and show me and Joy that we are wrong, prove Joy to be a liar!! We will anxiously await your responses!!

Again, just as a reminder, you can reach Joy at:

Samuel the Utahnite


At June 09, 2006 2:07 PM, Blogger Stenar said...


In light of the Mormon church lobbying Congress to ban gay marriage, I encourage everyone to contact their senators and rep. to let them know that you think Mormon Temple marriages ought to be banned constitutionally because those secret rituals are kind of creepy and not very much in keeping with traditional marriage.

(This is a rhetorical argument to make a point, people. Don't get too worked up about it.)

For more info about this lobbying effort to ban Mormon Temple marriage (and to find your reps' email address), go to

At June 09, 2006 2:36 PM, Anonymous RAY said...

Samuel and Joy,

Another great podcast, as usual. It was worth the wait! I have been thinking lately about the fact that even though a couple may divorce, the church still considers them married! The church claims that it does not believe in or practice polygamy, when, in fact, they do. Although a Mormon man can only be married to one LIVING woman at a time, he can seal himself again and again and again in the event his wife dies or they get divorced. In most cases, even though a couple may have divorced, they are still sealed! It takes a great deal of time and paperwork to nullify a temple sealing. They still strongly believe that they will be with their multiple wives in heaven, having spirit children and creating worlds!
As Joy proved to us, the church still very much believes in polygamy. If you can't see it by now, then you are truly blind.

At June 09, 2006 6:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Excellent Samuel and Joy!

At June 11, 2006 7:49 AM, Anonymous Jared said...

Everyone knows it is NOT the ceremony or ordinance that guarantees anything in the next life. The teaching is that people will have an eternal marriage IF the are BOTH faithful to each other and those covenants. If they are not living an "eternal marriage" here on earth, they will not be together in haven. THIS IS THE SAME WHETHER THEY DIVORCE OF NOT! My sealing is not guaranteed even if my wife and I never divorce, but we treat each other like crap.

Yes, in theory the Church believes in Polygamy as a principle in the next life. If a man and woman are sealed and she dies and he remarries, IF all three have been faithful to their promises to each other they will all be together in the next life.

At June 11, 2006 9:02 AM, Blogger Chris said...

Hey Jared, I am just curious:
When Jesus talked to the Sadducees in Mt 22:23-33, he didn't seem to have the slightest clue of polygamy.
Didn't God the Father tell him at that time? Or is this one of the chapters of the bible which were changed by the evil catholic church?
Maybe God the father didn't tell Jesus about Joseph Smith before he was sent on his mission to America...
Anyways, I appreciate that you are at least thinking.
Greets, Christoph.

At June 11, 2006 3:48 PM, Anonymous ray said...

Hi Jared,
Whether or not a sealing carries through to the next life is a matter of belief. I no longer believe that, and therefore, I view a temple wedding no differently than any other wedding. But, yes, in theory the church still believes in polygamy and that is exactly the point I was trying to make. Thank you for clarifying.

At June 11, 2006 11:35 PM, Blogger Samuel the Utahnite said...


Either you are misinformed or uninformed or both. First of all, in an Email to Joy, that you cc'd me on, you said:

A temple divorce requires one letter to the first Presidency and just wait. No hassle, just some time. Even if this is never done, the sealing is not recognized in the next life.

Okay, first of all, this is not true. Second of all, tell the Mormon Hierarchy that this "sealing is not recognized in the next life", because apparently you understand something that they aren't familiar with and they could use your help and guidance, in streamlining this incredibly intrusive practice.

I have had 3 friends that had to ask for a temple divorce and in all 3 cases, without exception, they had to initiate the request, of canceling the "unrecognizable sealing."

Then, after doing that, the Bishop wanted to know details of why their marriage broke down, what happened, was there sin involved, etc, you know, the typical bullshit that a Bishop puts people through.

Then, after that, the Bishop sent a letter to the other ex-spouse, asking for a response from them with details, that he would then have to forward to the First Presidency, along with his other findings.

Only then, would they "pray" about it and decide if the request would be granted. In 2 of the 3 cases I refer to, it had been over a year and in one case, over 2 years.

In other words, they had tried to put the past behind them and then, had to go through it all again, with their Bishop and Stake President.

So, for you to say that "A temple divorce requires one letter to the first Presidency and just wait" is blatantly false and I, along with others here, sure would love to know what insider knowledge or personal experience you've had in this arena, that led you to this simplistic conclusion.

Just to get a temple recommend after a divorce, is sticky business and involves having to tell both your Bishop and Stake President, all of the sordid details of what caused the divorce.


After Divorce, Separation, or Annulment

If a member has been divorced or legally separated or has had a marriage annulled, the bishop and stake president carefully interview him or her in the first subsequent temple recommend interview. They also review events that led to the breakdown of the marriage. If the member has not committed serious transgression, a temple recommend may be issued according to the usual procedure.

So, Jared, you think that the Church Hierarchy, will make it easier to get a temple divorce, than a temple recommend? Please!! I know you are wiser than that, or at least I hope you are.

Now, let's get specific on what the Church's "OFFICIAL DOCTRINE" says. Of course, to most apologists, like yourself, nothing is ever "OFFICIAL", but this stuff is as "OFFICIAL" as it gets and if it isn't, then you might as well throw the entire Church in the trash:

Applying for a Cancellation of Sealing or a Sealing Clearance

When a woman has been sealed and divorced, she may apply for a cancellation of the previous sealing. The bishop and stake president submit an Application to the First Presidency form to seek this cancellation.

When a man has been divorced from a woman who was sealed to him and is worthy and prepared to have another woman sealed to him, he may apply for a sealing clearance. The bishop and stake president submit an Application to the First Presidency form to seek this clearance.

The Application to the First Presidency form is available from the Office of the First Presidency in the United States and Canada. It is available from the Area Presidency in other areas. Instructions are on the form. The stake president should not submit it until the divorce is final and all legal issues relating to the divorce have been resolved.

So, if you notice, the woman must ask for a "cancellation", since she can't be sealed to more than one man, but the man, only has to ask for a "clearance", since he can be sealed to as many women as he wants to be. Why is this Jared? Please enlighten all of us!!

If the previous marriage is so invalid, and devoid of any value, according to you, then why the big deal? Why all the paperwork and re-hashing?

Why all of the meetings with the Bishop and Stake President, who are asking probing questions about why their marriage failed, maybe 5 years ago...10 years ago, etc?

Why even have to cancel it at all and go through all the bullshit? And why the differences between a man and a woman? Where do these concepts of men having multiple sealings and yet women can have only one, come from?

You don't think this goes back to the polygamous ways and guidelines of Ol'Joe, the first great Mormon polygamist, in the early 1830's?

Aren't they following the same law--men with as many women as they want, women with only one man? must just be a coincidence, right Jared?:0

Now, also, they are being sneaky and trying to make things sound more simplistic than they really are, just like you are trying to do Jared.

Again, they state:

The bishop and stake president submit an Application to the First Presidency form to seek this cancellation.

So yes, the simply submit an application, but do they describe what has to happen before that application is submitted and what it takes to complete it?

No, of course they don't and this is where both parties are asked to regurgitate their marital problems, what led to the divorce, in detail, no matter how long it has been.

Sounds like a pretty detailed process, just to cancel an already supposedly invalid sealing, doesn't it Jared? Do you not see how ridiculous your argument is Jared, when somebody looks at the totality of the facts.

Furthermore, I know without a doubt, from personally talking to those that have gone through it, both female and male; that having to go back to the past and go through the details of why someone got divorced, with an unqualified Bishop or Stake President, just brings more pain and suffering, for all the parties involved and is completely unnecessary and intrusive.

To me, it is just another part of the Church's voyeuristic need to delve into people's personal lives and details and control them.

As a member of the Mormon cult, nothing is personal and nothing is sacred. They want to know and control, every aspect of your life, right down to your sacred undies and this is just another perfect example of this psychosis.

Here's another rather comical statement you made Jared, that leaves out a lot of details:

If they are not living an "eternal marriage" here on earth, they will not be together in haven.

Let's just be honest here; unless everyone in the world, that is alive now or once lived on earth, is an "obedient Mormon", they will not be together with anyone at all, but just loners, kicking around a lower kingdom, right?

They either have to accept Joseph Smith, Brigham Young...Hinckley as Prophets in this life or the next, or they are completely screwed, right?

Certainly, you can't deny that Jared. I just felt the need to expand your definition of who wouldn't be together, and it's not just sealed Mormons that divorce and it goes much deeper than that.

Also, if Mormon sealings, after a divorce, are so worthless and invalid, why is it that the Church encourages a woman to stay sealed to her EX, until she is ready to get married again?

It sure doesn't seem worthless to the Mormon leaders and Hierarchy Jared, just to you, in your world, where you interpret things any way that makes you feel better and in a way that is easier for you to accept.

So why is this? Why do they encourage women to stay sealed to their "abusive ex" in some cases, until they are ready to marry again? Like they would would to be with the SOB in the next life?

I also love how a temple divorce, or sealing cancellation between the man and woman, or women, don't affect the sealing bond between the Parents and the kids?

So, here's a great scenario Jared, that you can answer for us all, since you have such great clarity and knowledge on the subject:

What happens to a woman, who is married to man that she loves and has children with him and then he dies? Can she now be sealed to another man, or would she have to cancel the sealing to the first man that she loved?

Why would she want to get a cancellation of sealing from the man she dearly loved.

Also, let's say that she not only remarries, but has more children, with the 2nd husband; who are they sealed to? They can't be sealed to her and her new husband, since they can't be sealed, right?

So, are the children that she has with her new husband, sealed to her and her husband that died? Good question, isn't it?

That silly Mormon God and his complicated sealing rules...LOL!!

Hey, for review, and so that there is no confusion, let's show once again, what the official, Mormon, Bishops Handbook says about women and sealings/marriage in the temple.

A living woman may be sealed to only one husband.

That statement is what it is. It's not taken out of context, twisted and is pretty simple for everyone to understand, isn't it? Man, I sure the hell hope so!! If you don't speak English, I'll even translate it for you.

Anyway Jared, we look forward to your clarity on this issue and we don't want your opinion, we want "OFFICIAL CHURCH POLICY", if such a thing really exists for you.

When I say "OFFICIAL CHURCH POLICY", I'm referring to an official statement by somebody that you would consider to have authority or out of one of their official books, which are not really official, just opinion, right?

It's just hard to nail down anything official for you Jared, since you apologists don't really consider anything to be official, at least according to an Email I just got from your Apologetic friend here in Salt Lake.

According to the quotes that they sent me, Joseph Smith and many leaders, actually spoke out against anything being official and that it would set them up for a trap....which is laughable.

I'm happy that you Jared and the Other Mormons on earth right now, the .002% of the population and probably .0005%, (when you consider just the active Mormons) are the only ones that have this shit figured out.

The other 99.9995% or the population, just has their head up their ass, right? Wow, we are truly grateful and blessed for your presence and insights and look forward to your authoritative response.

Can you imagine if the Mormon Church came out and cleared this stuff up? Yeah right....LOL!!

The truth is, the Mormon Hierarchy, couldn't even explain most of this stuff and would just call them "mysteries of God" and something that "we'd have to figure out on the other side."

What about this side? Oh yeah, just turn on that flaming bosom, and you'll be just fine, just ask Moroni!!

It's all about feelings...oh oh oh oh...feelings..LOL!!

Take care everyone, thanks for your comments and as always, thanks for your support and Emails and keep spreading the truth about the fraud of this evil cult, called Mormonism.


At June 12, 2006 12:05 PM, Blogger Samuel the Utahnite said...

Hey Everyone,

This is just a quick note for those TBM Apologists, or TBM Trolls, that just like to hang around here and make nasty, unwarranted comments about myself or my guests.

My advice is for you to go find some other place to hang out, because you aren't welcome here and I will delete your nasty and rude comments, that have nothing to do with the Church or the subjects at hand.

Different opinions and debate on the issues, are encouraged, but nasty personal attacks and accusations are not.

Also, if you are gonna leave something nasty, at least have the balls to give us your Email contact Anon, but then again, that's not your style, is it?

So, quit wasting your time and go back to FAIR or some other hole, where you belong and are welcome.

Also, if you hate me, my podcasts and guests so much and you love the Church so much; what the hell are you doing here? Did you talk to your Bishop yet?

You'd better make that appointment, before it's too late and you throw away your eternal life, by listening to a Son of Perdition in embryo.

For those TBMS, that are here to sincerely seek the truth or learn the truth, about the fraudulent Mormon Cult, you've come to the right place and thank you for listening.

I will not censor anyone or any comments, as I've stated, unless they are just being belligerent, rude and using personal attacks that have nothing to do with the purpose of my podcast or blogs. That behavior, will not be tolerated!!

Take care everyone, as we try to keep this a "TBM Troll Free Zone!!"


At June 13, 2006 1:16 PM, Blogger Samuel the Utahnite said...

Hey Anon,

Whose comment I had to delete are a loser with a capital L. What exactly is your personal problem with Joy and I?

So far, since I've started this blog for my podcasts, back in November, I've only had to delete 2 yesterday and one today, both yours.

So, congrats on being the only person to have their comments deleted and you supposedly are with us Ex-Mormons, since you are an Ex-Mormon. I find that hard to believe.

I don't give a damn what your background is, or if you hate the podcast, but when you start making unwarranted accusations and personal attacks against a guest on my show, your comments will get deleted, as I clearly stated yesterday.

So far, you are 2 for 2 and I don't know if you've left other comments in the past. You are obviously a person that is stone cold, with no emotion, no sympathy and no ability to sympathize or even try to comprehend what somebody else must be feeling.

Then again, we don't really know who you are and you could just be a TBM troll, as I've suggested. This Mormon world is full of people like yourself, just go read FAIR if you don't believe me.

You can disagree with me all day long, call me an ass, tell me that my shows suck big time, but when you get personal, like you did with Joy, that isn't debate and crosses the line into human decency.

Have your corresponded personally with Joy about your unfounded, ridiculous and absurd accusations? Yeah, I didn't think so!! What? You don't have the balls?

Does your tiny mind really think that is debating? If you aren't TBM, you sure act like a TBM or at least still have some of those finer qualities.

Also, if you don't like my podcasts, I don't give a damn, because this show doesn't depend on you and what you think.

I've received a ton of Email and so has Joy, thanking us for this show, which has helped a lot of people, especially women and it's too bad that your shallow mind, can't get anything out of it, except to criticize Joy personally, for being emotionally drained, tired and exhausted.

In fact, you are such an ass, I guess you missed her story about her dear friend that died recently, which was a tragedy and has had a huge impact in her life. Then again, why would somebody like you even care about that.

Maybe you are so cold, that you could share that same story without blinking an eye, or shedding a tear, as if you were talking about any other common thing, but most human beings aren't able to do that. Again Anon, you are the exception and that's nothing to be proud of.

Also, I'm not like the Church in deleting your comments, because anyone can disagree with me on the substance, the content, the issues, with me, but they cannot, as I've stated, attack my guests personally without any facts or substantiation.

If you think this is crossing the line, for me to delete your offensive comments, maybe you need to go look in the mirror pal.

Also, do yourself and everyone else a favor; quit posting personal attacks against Joy and quit listening to the podcasts and then bitching about them.

In fact, either start your own podcast, since there is so much to talk about, that I'm not talking about or come on my show and we'll hash it out. I'd give you 15 minutes to state your case, which is obviously so important to you.

Then again, we can do a whole podcast just on you and why you feel the need to attack Joy and then accuse me of censoring like the Church and how bad my podcasts suck.

I'm sure if you were on the show, you would then consider it to be a great podcast, right?

Like I said, you are a loser and I'm sure that most everyone here would agree with that statement. Anyone that feels the need to make the comments you have about Joy, has a real problem.

Again, if you don't like the show, just quit listening and get your own podcast and show me the way.

So, hey, we'll ask the readers and listeners here, what they think about this subject:

Did you guys find this 3 part interview with Joy to be worthless, boring, and lacking intellectual flair? Should I allow Anon to continue to post personal attacks against Joy and not delete his comments?

Oh, by the way Anon, I bet that Joy's intelligence is much higher than yours, just a guess, based on your uneducated comments.

I bet she also has a better job and makes more money than you do or ever will and she's only 26.

Tell us more about you Anon and what qualifies you to be judging other people's intelligence.

I can judge yours, because your comments reflect a very low IQ, both intellectually and socially and you are devoid of any human decency, which is of course, in conjunction and harmony with your arrogance.

If you really are an Ex-Mormon, go back!! They need arrogant people, who think they are very intelligent and above everyone else, just like you, to be great leaders.

Also, if I could suggest one more thing Anon; either get a spell checker or go back to school, as you look really stupid and uneducated, when you are accusing others, of being stupid and below you, and you can't even spell a basic word correctly...although it was humorous and extremely ironic!!

Here are some of the words that our super intelligent Anon couldn't spell correctly and please keep in mind, these were short little messages:

anaon, cos, outr, cuurch, becausae, remone, repretitive, Futher

Anon, just to help you, for future messages or in anything that requires spelling, here are the correct spellings of the above words:

anon, cuz, out, church, because, remove, repetitive, further

I hope that helped you out man!! If you call someone else out Anon, and purport to be so much more intelligent than they are, you had better be impeccable in every way.


At June 13, 2006 4:15 PM, Anonymous Joy said...

Unfortunately, Samuel has shared with me the contents of one of the deleted comments. Just so that the issue will go away, I will address the offensive comment.

I’m not going to get into a pissing contest discussing how intelligent or not intelligent I am. I will only say that for a person of my age to be responsible for running a finance department for a mid-cap size company ($75-150MM) should speak of my intellectual acumen.

As to the allegation that I was drunk during the interview. Not only is this comment slanderous, but immensely offensive. Let me put this into perspective for you: Samuel and I conducted this interview at 10:30pm (PST). We spoke for a longer time than you actually heard on the podcast, discussing what we were going to include, the topics we wanted to touch on, etc. So, in part 3, it is quite literally close to 2am on a weekday. If you couldn’t tell in part 2, in discussing the tragic suicide of my friend Brett, I was choking back tears, and attempting to mask any sounds of crying. By part 3, I was exhausted from a 14 hour work day, eyes stinging with tears, and completely pissed off when we got to the topic of my father and his new temple marriage. If I was repetitive, I apologize. My father and I have a strained relationship, and that period of time where he was hell bent on not nullifying his pre-existing temple marriage was a difficult one for me. Before doing this interview, I hadn’t talked about my feelings about these things in very much detail with anyone. I think it goes without saying that my experience during the interview was emotional, and I was even surprised how angry and upset I got in parts. I was an emotionally exhausted wreck by the time we finished this interview, and in part 3 my exhaustion definitely shows.

And about the temple marriage stuff – my largest issue with my father (still to this day) is that he completely disregarded his new wife’s wishes to have his previous sealing nullified. I find it offensive that my father would be so careless about someone else’s feelings. I do think that it is wrong that the Church still “allows” men to be sealed to more than one woman at the same time. Simply stating that my parent’s original sealing is null because they no longer uphold their covenants, well… it just doesn’t feel right to me. And Jared, I promise I will respond to your emails, and I am sorry I haven’t done so yet. I have been very busy at work, and have lacked the energy to give you the response that you deserve.

At June 13, 2006 10:39 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hi Joy and Samuel.

Unfortunately in my own journey out of the church with my TBM family and friends, I've found with much distress that basically they treat you like crap when they find that they have no hope in pulling you back in. You can find yourself in horrible abusive "discussions". I can see that you both are getting "flamed". Although you both know this, it doesn't hurt to be reminded that...

You both are doing a fantastic, courageous thing by talking about these issues and putting yourselves out there on the front line to be both loved and spat upon.

You are helping a great many people, please keep that in mind when the flames get a bit too hot.

Be good to you.

At June 14, 2006 7:33 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...


Lets deal with your trantrums one at a time shall we, like adults. I wasnt attacking Joy, I said she sounded drunk on Podcast3 which, if you listen to it, she does. She however graciously explains the reason for it whereas you go off in a tirade of abuse. How grown up is that? My spell check isnt working hence the mistakes in my last blog as i was busy and typing fast. If your show doesnt depend on what I think, what is it's purpose? Surely the point of your podcast is to open up debate about the origins of mormonism and relay interesting and important factual evidence that the whole thing is very shakey. The fact I found a three part interview with Joy boring is my opinion and im intitled to it. Because you have reacted in such an angry way tells me you have issues, perhaps you need to see someone. Attcking me personally is pointless. Moreover, is this how you think you its resonable to behave when you host a podcast that is seeking feedback? Deleting any comments on the blog is a form of censorship and in that repect you are behaving like the Church becasuse that is largely what they do. So grow up dude and get over it! Joy did. Infact she sounds pretty cool whereas you come accross like an angry, bitter, resentful teenager and I think you are in your mid thirties. Try and act like it

At June 14, 2006 12:55 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

As far as the tantrums go, I have to agree. It does seem to get a bit out of hand and abusive.

Knowing you were Mormon and have tons of anger inside you, and are being attacked daily from people emailing you, and realizing you are trying to live your personal life under cover has got to get hard, lonely and play havoc with your head. One can only take that so long. So I understand your anger.

Joy did sound drunk, although she was simply tired. I heard it too. That isn't to diss anyone. You guys just recorded it really late, that is all. Anyone would get woosey at that hour. Her material was fine, if not tragic.

Just some feedback.

At June 14, 2006 1:12 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Oh, lookie here. "Anonymous" backing up and agreeing with "Anonymous" while at the same time trying to pretend like he is in fact a different "Anonymous" than the previous.

This "Anonymous", for one, can easily tell that the previous two "Anonymouses" are in fact the same "Anonymous". Anyone who thinks Joy sounded drunk in the podcast has no idea of what it means to be drunk. Nice try, though, "Anonymous". How does it feel to be in the position of having to post an anonymous message agreeing with your previous anonymous message to boost your self-esteem in front of a bunch of other anonymous people on the Internet? Pathetic.

BTW, your final statement, "Her material was fine, if not tragic" gave me quite a chuckle. Unintentional hilarity gives away a TBM like nothing else.

Anonymously yours,


At June 14, 2006 4:08 PM, Blogger Samuel the Utahnite said...

Anon(June 14, 2006 7:33 AM) and also (June 14, 2006 12:55 PM)-both the same Anon, as the other poster noted.

I wasnt attacking Joy, I said she sounded drunk on Podcast3 which, if you listen to it, she does. (It's wasn't, not wasnt)

Well, I guess you are the only one to think that, because you are the only one that has suggested that. Again, you are all alone Anon in your thinking. But yeah, accusing someone of something that you know nothing about, just shows what you are all about.

Then you say, oh, I wasn't attacking her at all; what are you talking about...."innocent little old me would never do that!!"

She however graciously explains the reason for it whereas you go off in a tirade of abuse. How grown up is that?

As I've clearly stated Anon, I can say anything that I want to you, or anybody else for that matter, in response to your absurd, unfounded accusations against Joy, who poured her heart out on the podcast and shared very personal and emotional experiences.

You are now in my forum, on my ground, on my blog and I decide what is acceptable or not and you crossed the line. My line is pretty far over there as well and you are the only one to even approach my liberal line.

What makes you Anon, think that you are in control of my blog anyway? You must be having flashbacks to your TBM days, when you were in control of others.

When someone is a complete ass, like you are and were, I will tell them that they are an ass and apparently, you can't handle that, can you?

I wasn't going to allow you to make unfounded, personal attacks against Joy and yes, to say that she was drunk, without even knowing her at all, or taking into the account any of the circumstances, is an unfounded, personal attack.

As I previously mentioned, your two comments, are the only comments that I've had to delete in 7 months, which should say a lot for you.

First, several people, from the Christian side, attack her friend for being a sinner, because he was homosexual, which disgusted me and then you Anon, devoid of any common decency or intelligence, accuse her of being drunk.

Like Joy really needed to hear that bullshit from you guys, after the pain that she has gone through and is going through.

I know she's tough and she can handle it, but my God, have any of you who have brought this personal criticism against Joy and her friend, every heard of compassion or is your agenda just more important than that?

I don't give a shit what you think of me and you can call me every name in the book, but you aren't going to be allowed to insult Joy, who shared the tragic story of a friends death, due directly to his Mormon upbringing, which you of course find boring Anon.

The fact that you find that boring, paints a very sad picture of you and who you are as a person. Maybe Mormonism did permanent damage to you and you just can't put your life back together.

My spell check isnt working hence the mistakes in my last blog as i was busy and typing fast.(it's isn't, not isnt.)

Very busy and typing fast? Your comments must have taken you like 2 minutes to write, maybe? Please Anon, tell us another one!!

I just pointed out your obvious flaws Anon, since you were so quick to state that Joy must not have been very intelligent, on top of drunk.

If you are gonna point the finger like you did and question someone else's intellect, you'd better have that spell checker fired up, or at least know how to spell basic words, or proof your 2 second post, so that you can take the heat and scrutiny in return. No free passes here for hypocritical asses like yourself.

If your show doesnt depend on what I think, what is it's purpose?(It's doesn't, not doesnt...I guess your apostrophe key isn't working or is it your brain?)

This is one of the most laughable and arrogant comments you've made yet Anon. Do you actually think that I created this show just for you? LMAO!!

So, it has no purpose, if the show doesn't depend on what you think? Are you kidding me?

Do I know you? You must feel that you are somebody extremely important in my life or something, right? If I do know you, I wish I didn't, that's for sure.

Just to clarify again; my show has never and will never, depend on what you, one person that I do not even know, or give a damn about, thinks of it. Was that clear enough for you?

Surely the point of your podcast is to open up debate about the origins of Mormonism and relay interesting and important factual evidence that the whole thing is very shakey. (It's "shaky" by the way!! Hint-spell checker)

Duh!! Doh!! But you tell me and everyone else here,(We must just be slower than you) what accusing Joy of being drunk, had to do with "debate about the origins of Mormonism and important factual evidence?"

Do you even have a clue what the hell you are talking about? Sorry, the last question was rhetorical, since we all know the answer already.

The fact I found a three part interview with Joy boring is my opinion and im intitled to it.(It's entitled, not intitled and I'm, not im!!)

Yes you are and I've had other Emails, on other podcasts, saying that they thought a particular podcast was boring and oh well, that is there opinion. I responded cordially and told them that I was sorry they felt that way and hopefully they'd find future ones to be better.

I also find it fascinating Anon, that you feel entitled to your opinion, to say whatever you want, attack anyone you want, with no facts, but at the same time, don't feel that I'm entitled to my opinion of your opinion, on my blog.

So you want freedom for you, as long as I don't oppose you in any way or show everyone what a complete ass you are.

But the other people that may have complained that a podcast was boring, weren't also saying, and making accusations, at the same time, that my guest must have been drunk, stupid, etc.

You act like you didn't say what you said Anon, but you did and you can't get around it. You were an inconsiderate idiot and you can't come to terms with that fact and admit it.

I wanted Joy to have a chance to respond, if she chose to, which she now has done and so at the end of this comment, I will repost your previous comments, word for word, error for error, exactly as you posted them. I guess you can't say I'm editing you then, right? LOL!!

It might be good for everyone here to see your absurd, uneducated comments, that sparked this discussion.

Because you have reacted in such an angry way tells me you have issues, perhaps you need to see someone.

Yeah, I have issues with assholes like you, that think they are God, have God complexes and are arrogant little pricks.

Oh sorry, I'm reacting in an angry way again to that last comment. Sorry, I just can't seem to stop kicking against the pricks, that's my new hobby and you make yourself an easy target.

Attcking me personally is pointless.(It's attacking, not attcking-again spell checker dude..please!!)

Attacking you personally, with facts, and good reason, is fantastic and better than your baseless, fact-less personal attacks against Joy.

Do you really think that people are this stupid Anon, that they would agree with you? Do you think that people can't see you for who and what you are? Do you really think that people agree with your ad hominem attacks against Joy, without any regard for anything she said or shared?

Moreover, is this how you think you its resonable to behave when you host a podcast that is seeking feedback?(It's reasonable, not resonable. I mean dude, take some time to at least proof your comments. For being so intelligent and above us, you look pretty stupid.)

Absolutely, because it's my show, my podcast, my blog and I've spent countless hours putting all of this together for the last 7 months, in addition to my Mormon Truth blog.

What have you done Anon to help this cause of mine, other than your last 3 comments? As far as I know, nothing at all!!

Deleting any comments on the blog is a form of censorship and in that repect you are behaving like the Church becasuse that is largely what they do. So grow up dude and get over it!(Okay, it's respect, not repect!! Are you just illiterate Anon? Oh yeah, and just to show your further embarrassment, it's because, not becasuse.)

I'm still a little baffled as to why you think you have so much power on my site or with me? Again, do I know you, have me met before, over in Mormon Discussions by chance?

But, yes, deleting comments is a form of censorship and I have the right to delete whatever I want, whenever I want, if I deem it to be inappropriate and off the subject which your comments clearly were.

What if someone came on here, throwing out racial slurs? What if someone personally attacked someone, and accused them of things that weren't true, just like you did? You don't think I should have the authority, on my own blog, to delete those comments? What fantasyland are you living in?

I'm begging you dude, please start your own blog and podcast and then you can say or do whatever your want, instead of coming onto somebody else's blog and trying to dictate policy, etc.

You could even dedicate a whole page to me and what an ass I am, how badly I treated you and how I was a hypocrite, because I practiced censorship, just like the Mormon cult, etc. You could quote me and show the world what a dick I am, right? Go ahead, do it!!

If you even knew me a little bit, through my podcasts and writings, you wouldn't say that I'm in favor of oppressing people or stifling freedom of speech. This again, shows that you don't know me or what I'm about, at all.

Joy did. Infact she sounds pretty cool whereas you come accross like an angry, bitter, resentful teenager and I think you are in your mid thirties. Try and act like it(It's In fact, two words, not Infact, as one word. How old are you really? You must be like a teenager TBM or something, I mean seriously. Also, it's across, not accross, just for future reference.)

Hey dude, piss off man. Joy is cool, Joy is awesome and a great woman and I actually know her personally, have talked to her for many hours, but guess what? You don't know her at all, and now you say that "she sounds pretty cool."

Yeah, maybe you should try to get to know someone before your accuse them of being drunk, boring and stupid, you think?

Sadly, you haven't learned a thing, as your condescending arrogance, wouldn't even allow you to tell Joy that you are sorry for your reckless, accusatory comments.

You said that I come across as, an "angry, bitter, resentful teenager." Well, when I'm dealing with arrogant pricks like bet!! Do I care what you think? Nope, not even a little bit!! I'm simply clarifying things for you, since you don't know what's going on.

I don't have time in my life for people like you, who think that they can say or do whatever they want and that they are then above reproach and that nobody should ever question them.

I'm trying to help certain people here and you are not one of them. I still believe that you are most likely a TBM Troll and that becomes more and more obvious.

The fact that Joy's tragic story about her friend who recently passed away, didn't even impact you a little bit, speaks many volumes about who you are.

I call it like I see it and you Anon, are a complete ass and like I said, I don't have time for you.

If you want to continue this conversation, take it to my Email, because I will delete all of your future comments, since they are worthless. I will not allow you to infest my blog and cut down sincere people, who are simply trying to help others.

So, don't waste your time any longer here, as your comments will not be posted and I will censor your immature ass, every chance I get, because I can and it's my blog and you don't belong here, unless you want to actually discuss the subject matter, which you clearly don't.

Anyway everyone, here are the two Emails that Anon posted here, that pissed me off and that I felt the need to delete. I'm sure that most of you will agree that they have no place here, or anywhere.


Perhaps it would have been a better interview if Joy hadnt been drinking in part 3. She was clearly slurring her words and was boringingly repretitive. Futher, she isnt very bright. If you want to create real interest in your podcast you need to be choosy whom you interview.

Posted by Anonymous to Mormon Truth Podcast!! at 6/12/2006 10:56:41 AM

If you are referring to the anon from yesterday which questions whrther Joy was drunk in part 3, that was me. Im only anaon cos I cant be bothered with signing up to a blog use account. Moreover, im a 20 year outr of the cuurch returned missionary so dont assume it's a TBM becausae I didnt like your interview. When you remone comments, you behave like the Church.. I thought you encouraged debate Samuel? I guess only if folk agree with you. Your podcast needs a more intellectual flair to it. Come on! there is loads to talk about but moaning on the same stuff is getting us nowhere

Posted by Anonymous to Mormon Truth Podcast!! at 6/13/2006 06:27:53 AM

Oh by the way, congrats on being a "20 year OUTR of the CUURCH returned missionary." LMAO!! I've been OUTR of the CUURCH now for about a year...LOL!!

Now, lets get back to the subject; that the Mormon Church is an evil cult and creates people like Anon, who are damaged for life.

Thanks Joy for your comments and I'm sorry that such an asshole had to come on here and make such disparaging remarks toward you.

I think he is the lone person doing this and I have a pretty good idea who he is. I will delete all further comments by this anon, as I've stated above.

Take care Joy and thanks to everyone else, for your support, both for Joy and myself. Also, thanks for your support of this podcast, which has been overwhelming.

It would be great to hear from more of you, that enjoyed this podcast and from those that it helped.

Take care everyone and thanks again for your support and feel free to respond to Anon, and his personal attacks on Joy, in any way you choose.


At June 14, 2006 4:51 PM, Anonymous Joy said...

Just wanted to point out – you don’t have to comment anonymously if you don’t have a blogger account. Simply check the radio button “other” instead of “anonymous”, and enter your name/alias in the box. It would be nice to be able to distinguish between “anonymous” posts.

Also, Samuel has a point with his anger. If only some of you could see the hatemail. Thanks to all of you who have sent positive mail to help balance it out. Going forward, at least in my case, if you have something negative to say, please take it to personal email. This comment board should be for intelligent discussion, not slander. And yes, anon, your comment was slanderous. Given that you (sort of) recanted, I’m going to drop it, despite the many typos while calling me stupid. I recommend we all do the same, and move on with more stimulating conversation.

At June 15, 2006 3:24 AM, Anonymous Peter Dellenheart said...

Hello Joy,
yesterday, I have talked to some LDS on the IRC chat program.
I asked them about the polygamy stuff, and of course, they denied it.
"She probably is part of a radical spin off". When I told them that you were mainstream LDS, they accused you of lying.
If this is really an issue for you, why not go public with it?
It surely would be of general interest in Utah, especially with regard to the debate about this "big family" TV series.
Of course, I can understand that this is your family issue.
Anyway, I was so glad that you shared the story about your friend and that most people, except for some christian rightwing Nazis, have supported you here.

Some time ago, I have seen the movie "Latter days" which also deals with a gay mormon who tries to commit suicide and then is sent to reparative therapy. Luckily, he finds out of Mormonism and in the end lives with his boyfriend, although the negative turn to this happy end is that he is completely cut off from his TBM family.
Of course it's fiction, so I was even more sad about this movie when I heard your friend's story.

I appreciate that you gave this person a voice and go public with this scandal which in my opinion is the real sin.


At July 28, 2006 5:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

sam, dude, you are an idiot.

At July 28, 2006 6:51 PM, Blogger Samuel the Utahnite said...

Anon(July 28, 2006 5:00 PM)

First of all....Ha Ha Ha...LMAO!!

Hey, thanks dude for sharing your deep insights with all of us and revealing your IQ at the same time. My sincere hope is that you didn't strain your brain with that last comment. Sometimes for people like you, even getting out one small sentence, is very difficult!! Who knows, maybe you had a break through...LOL!!

Best wishes and please come again,


At July 30, 2006 4:51 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

No to push, but is there any indication of a new podcast?

At August 07, 2006 2:40 PM, Anonymous Joy said...

Peter Dellenheart - I assure you I am not lying. I do not want to "go public" as seeking out news sources and launching a huge attack because, well, it happened, and I've put it behind me. I don't have the mental energy to go through it. However, if I was contacted by a news source, I'd be happy to comment. I don't know how public the church marital records are. But if you could access them, you'd be able to verify that what I said actually happened.

At September 02, 2006 11:09 PM, Anonymous finallyoutofthisgodforsakencult! said...


Love your shows, love your style, etc.

But I do have a bone to pick with you. Yes, we all know that the apologists are annoying and hateful at times, and lots of the things you find fault in them are true, but you really do stoop to their level with the ad hominen attacks. Insulting their intelligence, resorting to name-calling, etc., is just pointless. It's not going to open up their minds, and I highly doubt that rehashing those angry feelings in your verbose rants make you feel any better. Honestly, sometimes I feel discouraged about coming on to your site to comment or discuss because there is always some TBM that leaves an inflammatory remark and you leave pages of counterattacks in response. Then I have to scroll through your posts which are primarily a bunch of repetitive fluff...

Just try to take a deep breath and ignore it. You won't win any hearts and minds by playing their games.

Best of luck in your upcoming shows, I'm looking forward to them! :-)

At September 20, 2006 4:30 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I totally agree with the previous poster. Where's the next podcast you always promise the listeners? Oh that's right, your busy with personal stuff. You have a life outside of this podcast deal. If that's the case, then quit making empty promises. Now that I left this comment we will all get to read your 500,000 word reply in how I should start my own.
You are the one with a podcast, so except the critism and get going!!

At September 23, 2006 10:34 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I was forced into polygamy by the church and their rules.

I remained sealed to my exhusband against my will, whom I divorced about 24 years ago. He has another wife, whom he could, if not had married in the temple. I tried to get the sealing cancelled several times so I could be sealed to the man I am married to. My ex was given the right to hold onto his sealing to me and did so every time I applied.

So in essence he was married to two living women even though I was living with someone else. I doubt that my case was the only one like that in the church.

This meant I never did get sealed to the man I love... which doesn't really matter anymore since I was excommunicated, although I had done nothing but question Hinkley's "keys" a few years back, without so much as a bishops court.

I think they were just cleaning up their rolls before the olypics came to town... As they had left me on the rolls for years several years knowing I had questions. I think it seemed embarassing to have a tattoo artist on the rolls.

Just my 2 pennies -

At September 23, 2006 10:58 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Sorry to post again... I wanted to share my story before I got to read all of the comments above.

First of all - I divorced my ex because after he abused me in every way that a man can abuse a woman without any consequences from the church, he literally tried to kill me. I had to be put on state protective custody and my children and I lived in an orphanage with 24 hour police surveillance until I could get my father to come and get me.

I feel it was extreemly emotionally abusive of the church to allow that man to be left in charge of who I was sealed to! It was even more abusive to make me recount the story of our marraige and divorce and to have to justify it, over and over again, without any results!

Secondly - I have a suspicion that you have had a visit from the same abusive person who has been harassing me lately. If you want to... Please feel free to share any future flames (including links to what you are being flamed about) that you get over at my new blog set up in my flamers honor -

Peace, Kita

At October 03, 2006 5:56 PM, Anonymous Joy said...

Ok Samuel... you have officially fallen off the face of the earth! Are you enjoying outer darkness???

Just wanted to post a random update. My mother received a very suspicious letter from the stake president of my father's ward (she's in CA, he's in TX... I find this very bizarre). The letter was asking my mother all sorts of weird questions about her marriage to my father - like "was he honorable? did you find him to be a satisfactory husband?"

My mother wrote a response back telling this stake president that if he wanted to nullify the sealing it was more than fine with her, and that she would sign anything she needed to - other than that, she had no idea why he was writing her.

I haven't heard about anything since she sent a letter back - I don't talk to my pig of a father anymore so I don't know his side of the story. But Samuel, I just wanted to bounce the details off of you and get your opinion, you have more experience with the "rules" of these things (or at least access to rule books).

So email me already, or call.

And thanks to everyone for your supportive emails!

At December 20, 2006 4:23 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

For you to believe that what the church handbook says about marriage after divorce or loss of a spouce as being polygamy means the mormon marriage has the power to pass through this earth and exist in heaven. Therefore it would seem they would have God's authority to allow their marriage into heaven. The polygamy would come into play in heaven and not on earth since they are still only with one spouce.
If you do not believe the moromons have authority from God to do his will then who cares how they write their rules for remarrying. The person is still only with once spouce and not with multiple spouces at the same time.
Them being with only one spouce at a time would not be any different than any other divorce. At least they stay with one spouce and not have multiple partners at a time.
The difference comes in whether you believe they have authority fom God ( which would probably make them a true religion). If they have authority then , in heaven, mormons can have polygamous relationships. If they do not have authority from God then who cares how they handle divorces and loss of spouce. It would make them no different than everyone else.

At January 05, 2007 5:53 PM, Anonymous Annie said...

Wow...I think it's pretty pathetic that you waste so much time and energy fighting the mormon church...and as valid as you think your points are, they really don't stand up under any heat. People who aren't truly sure of their position are the ones who get obsessive about convincing other people that they are right. Not even the Mormon's do that, they teach and encourage people to find out for themselves, from God, if it's true. Do you honestly think that millions and millions of people have been deceived into thinking they've gotten an answer? Not likely. It's a lot more likely that a few people here and there will lose the light they once had, and decide to fight the truth with all they've got. It's kind of obvious you're not a very happy person. It shows a lot of weakness that you rip on somebody for MISSING AN APOSTROPHE or adding an extra letter into a word. Why aren't you ripping apart people who agree with you?
You know, this religion has taken heat and persecution since the beginning...The truth has ALWAYS been easy to spot...just look for that which is being fought the most, and receiving the most persecution. Look at Jesus Christ, the very Son of God, who brought perfect truth to the world. People reviled him, spit on him, beat him, and crucified him. Because somebody (the adversary, the devil himself) does NOT want truth to penetrate the hearts of others, so he fights it with all he's gone. He's clearly gotten a hold on you. How sad. What happened to your wife, did she decide she's been brainwashed too? It truly will be a great and dreadful day when you find out your WERE in the right place, but lost your way. The tears you will shed then....

At February 03, 2007 4:57 PM, Anonymous ray said...


What is more likely, that millions and millions of people have received their little "testimony" or that billions and billions have not? How could a few million people be wrong, right? How can several billion people be wrong.

Mormonism is a cult and your very words have proven it. The mentality that you are right and everyone else is wrong is a sure sign.

Why are you so offended that a few people have voiced their opposition to the church? Do you not think it is offensive to have 50,000 missionaries knocking on doors all over the world, telling people that they are wrong?

I wonder what people will be saying in 1000 years from now when Jesus still hasn't returned. I'm sure there will be some type of cog dis excuses and bizzare explanations. But the bottom line is that Jesus is a damn myth no different than Zeus.

In 1000 years from now when all the wicked and evil people have not been burned, what will Mormons say then? (if Mormonism is still around then) Your precious church is steadily dropping in conversions every single year. That being the case, what ever happened to "fill the whole earth"?

Clearly Mormonism is an organization with a goal of world domination. Can you just imagine what the world would be like if the Mormons were in charge? They would absolutely take away all of our freedom in an attempt to save everyone. Ironic, doesn't that sound like Satan's plan?

Samuel, any news of a podcast ever again or is this the end of them?

At March 30, 2007 12:02 AM, Blogger ExMormon Skeptic said...

Thank you Joy, for sharing your story. I have been looking for a podcast from the perspective of an exmormon woman. I recently started my own just to fill the void in the genre.

Keep up the good work Samuel. I enjoy your blog very much. You do come across as angry most times, but it is honest, real, and something I can relate to.


At January 17, 2008 10:10 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...



At April 10, 2008 10:24 AM, Blogger John said...

This was a great podcast. I send my regards to Joy. I no what it is like to feel like the only way out is death. I have tried twice in my own life. Getting out of the church was the best thing I did.


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